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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Nov 14, 2011 9:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1973 Is Just so Good!

different guitars:
http://dozin.com/jers/guitar/history.htm

'73 - '76 has the sweetest tones from jerry.

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Nov 14, 2011 9:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1973 Is Just so Good!

Thanks for the link - interesting reading. OTOH, it doesn't answer the question. I agree with you about the sound, but according to this site, he went through 3 guitars in that period, including the one he used a lot in 72. And to me, 73 sounds different than 74. I think there's a lot of other techno factors involved, and it's well beyond me.

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Poster: Reade Date: Nov 14, 2011 10:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1973 Is Just so Good!

Well beyond me too. Agree it's probably several techno factors rolled into one, for purposes of this issue.
I've wondered for example if the reel-to-reel rig they hauled around got replaced / updated at some point, if the brand of reel-to-reel recording tape was similarly changed, if Jerry switched the type of strings / picks he was using (OK, just kidding about the picks), .....but it's potnetially so many things.

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Nov 14, 2011 12:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1973 Is Just so Good!

Here's my take. The guitars Jerry used in '72 all sound fairly similar, because they are all Fender Strats. He began '72 with a '57 natural finish Strat, given to him by Graham Nash, which he also used a good amount in '71. This guitar was nicknamed “Alligator” and is the guitar heard on the Europe tour.

In June, I believe Jerry switched to a different Strat for a brief period, and then continued to play Alligator for the remainder of the year, and up until May of '73. Another thing that accounted for sound differences, is the fact the Alligator was constantly being tweaked by the Dead's guitar techs. An absurd amount of time and work went into tweaking that guitar, and changing the sounds it could produce. However, these tweaks in the guitar sound are less noticeable than switching guitars. When Jerry got “Wolf” and started playing it in May of '73, there was immediately a very noticeable difference in tone.

Jerry used the same guitar in '74 as well. I'm not sure what exactly accounts for the sound difference between '73 and '74, but my guess would just be simple amplifier adjustments. Possibly some tweaking of the guitar again as well. Jerry played with various levels of distortion throughout his career as we all know, and there is an infinite number of small variations one could make to the sound a guitar makes. So Reade, you're correct in that it could potentially be so many different things. Strings do affect the thickness of the sound, but it's hardly noticeable to most, and I wouldn't attribute any changes in sound to guitar strings.

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Nov 14, 2011 7:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1973 Is Just so Good!

"Jerry used the same guitar in '74 as well. I'm not sure what exactly accounts for the sound difference between '73 and '74, but"

The Wall?

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Nov 14, 2011 8:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1973 Is Just so Good!

the WOS affected the live sound and the sound of auds. but on a sbd, you aren't hearing what was heard through the speakers. also the WOS wasn't used for all of '74.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 15, 2011 11:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1973 Is Just so Good!

I don't see how you can say that the Wall of Sound and all the new gear (especially the noise-cancelling mics) they were using at that time didn't affect the soundboard recordings.

They were using an entirely new system (though a smaller version of the WOS was used at some '73 shows). There's no way that it didn't affect the sound. I think it's quite easy to hear.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Nov 14, 2011 2:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1973 Is Just so Good!

I'm with you on this, especially regarding how many pickups onboard were used, and how they were tweaked and set up... there's a lot of healthy discussion (ad infinitum AND ad nauseam) regarding Garcia's tone over at this site: http://www.rukind.com/

click on the link Jerry Garcia Tone for literally hundreds of discussions from musicians and gearheads.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Nov 14, 2011 2:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Alligator to Wolf

You have your dates wrong. Alligator 4.0 was retired from stage use on August 1st 1973 (Roosevelt Stadium). Garcia first played Wolf on stage September 5th 1973 at a private Hells Angels boat party on the SS Bay Belle in New York with Merl Saunders, John Kahn and Bill Kreutzmann. Wolf's first appearance with the Grateful Dead was at the Nassau Coliseum on September 7th.

So if you're hearing a 'noticeable difference in tone' in May 73 it's not down to the guitar switch...

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 15, 2011 6:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

Perhaps this is a good time to clear something up. I have a bundle of GD photos I downloaded somewhere, and there are a few supposedly from the Indianapolis State Fair show on 10/27/73. In this first one, Jerry is clearly playing the Alligator guitar (or something like it -- notice that the tuning knobs are all in a row on top).

19731027001.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

But in this photo, supposedly from the same show, he's playing the Wolf, and everyone is dressed differently.

197310272167.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

If the Wolf appeared in September, then I assume the first picture is just mislabeled. If so, where is that photo from?

This post was modified by snow_and_rain on 2011-11-15 14:48:33

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Nov 15, 2011 7:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

Well now. That first pic appears on Dead.net as 10-27-73 - I guess it's possible they mislabeled it but we'd better assume they didn't. That guitar Garcia is playing is giving a pretty fine impression of being a Strat so far as I can see. All I can do here is descend into the realms of wild speculation - could Garcia have gone back to the Alligator temporarily while the 'quippies fixed something on Wolf? I mean, he wouldn't take just one guitar to a gig would he? He'd have some kind of back up surely. As I say, just speculating wildly.

As to your second pic - I have no clue where or when that might be. If the first pic is 10-27-73 then, like you say, this can't be from that gig. A puzzle.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 15, 2011 10:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

Given what we know about the debut of the Wolf, my guess is that the first pic is simply mislabeled. Might be a July show? Or even '72? I think his hair was a bit longer (and sometimes in pig tails) in the first half of '73.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 15, 2011 11:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

Forget what I said about it possibly being '72. Bobby is playing an SG, which I don't think appeared until '73.

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Nov 14, 2011 2:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

thanks for clarifying. those angels sure are a lucky bunch. where did you get this info?

and there actually is no difference at all from april to may of '73 in terms of tone. jerry got wolf in may though. i wonder why he waited so long to play it at shows.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Nov 14, 2011 3:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

"When Jerry got “Wolf” and started playing it in May of '73, there was immediately a very noticeable difference in tone."

Your words.


"When I finished and first delivered the Wolf to Jerry in May, 1973, I was anxious to see his reaction. He was immediately quite pleased, but after playing it for about five minutes, Jerry asked me if I would build him another guitar. I asked him what he would like in the next guitar? He told me that I already knew what he liked in a guitar, that I should make it the way I thought best, not to worry about how much it cost, just 'don't hold back'."
- Doug Irwin

Maybe that helps to answer your question as to why Garcia didn't play Wolf on stage in May 73. He apparently gave Wolf 001 to Ramrod.

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Nov 14, 2011 3:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

indeed. i was trying to point out that the most noticeable differences in sound come from a change of guitars, usually. as i was writing the statement in quotes below, i left out 'May' initially, and hastily looked up when he began using wolf. i didn't read into it enough at the time and assumed he started using it in may as well, without actually thinking about it. had i thought about it for a moment, i would have realized his tone sounds the same in april and may.

"However, these tweaks in the guitar sound are less noticeable than switching guitars. When Jerry got “Wolf” and started playing it in May of '73, there was immediately a very noticeable difference in tone."

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Nov 14, 2011 3:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

...without actually thinking about it. had i thought about it for a moment, i would have realized... that checking my facts before posting in my usual cocksure scattergun fashion would make me an altogether more likeable person.
:-)


Just as an aside, I am mildly intrigued by your switches from regulation use of caps to non caps in your posts.

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Nov 14, 2011 3:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

haha, you're beginning to grow on me.

for awhile now, i've often wondered if people would ever pick up on that. it is a strange phenomena that i have no explanation for. I never even notice it until after I read my posts. i believe my more lucid moments tend to use caps.

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Poster: ducats Date: Nov 15, 2011 3:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Alligator to Wolf

referring to something YOU do as a strange phenomenam (sp? - i can't get the red to go away) is phenominal

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Nov 14, 2011 4:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: First sighting of Wolf?

I might grow on you even more after this. I believe this clip has footage of the Hells Angels boat party I mentioned and you can catch a glimpse of Garcia's first performance on Wolf. Historic, or what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEHogYhhmR8

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Nov 14, 2011 4:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First sighting of Wolf?

that is awesome. even more awesome, the guy getting married takes a few good puffs on a gargantuan jay, as his wedding vows are being haphazardly recited by several people. i don't mind all the breastices either.

jerry talking about not wanting to fuck with an angel is hilarious too.

This post was modified by rdenirojb87 on 2011-11-15 00:24:52

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Nov 14, 2011 7:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1973 Is Just so Good!

"Jerry used the same guitar in '74 as well. I'm not sure what exactly accounts for the sound difference between '73 and '74, but"

The Wall?

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